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Dry-burning metal coils: is it a good thing?

Discussion in 'E-News' started by -V-, May 27, 2015.

  1. -V-
    Cool

    -V- Thread Starter Administrator Staff Member

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    By Dr Farsalinos and Pedro Carvalho (material sciences expert)

    There has been a lot of discussion about my statement during the RY4 radio interview on Friday May 22 concerning the dry burning of coils. This is a process in which vapers prepare the coil and then apply a lot of power to the bare coil (with no wick or liquid), heating it to the level of glowing red. The main purposes for doing this is to: a) check for homogenous distribution of temperature over the coil length; b) avoid hot spots; c) clean the metal from residues due to manufacturing or due to previous use.

    During my interview I mentioned that it is not a good idea to dry burn the coil, not even once. Since then I have received a lot of responses, emails and requests from vapers to further expand on this, provide evidence and explain the issues related to this process. I have also received data sheets and specs of the metals used for coils, showing that they are stable at extreme temperatures (usually 1000oC or more).

    First of all, I should say that the reactions from the vaping community are a bit exaggerated. I never said that by dry-burning the coil you are making vaping more harmful than smoking. Obviously some vapers who are used to dry-burning their liquids for a long time did not like my statement. But please, consider that my role is not to say what everyone expects but to say how things are. To further explain my statement, I invited Pedro Carvalho a material sciences expert with good background on metal structure, composition and degradation. Pedro also has deep knowledge on e-cigarettes and is well-known in the Portugese vaping community and abroad. This comment has been prepared jointly by me and Pedro Carvalho.

    Vapers should realize that metals used in coils have not been made to be in continuous direct contact with liquid, to evaporate liquid on their surface and to have the consumer inhale the vapor directly from the coil. This is a completely different issue from what the metal specifications suggest. It is well-known that metals have been detected in the aerosol of e-cigarettes. Williams et al. found chromium and nickel which was coming from the coil itself, although they did not dry-burn the coil. Although we explained in our risk-assessment analysis that the levels found were not of significant health concern, this does not mean that we should accept unnecessary exposure.

    Dry-burning the coils means heating them to temperatures well above 700oC (we have both measured temperatures under these conditions). This is expected to have significant effects on the structure of the metal and the bonds between metal atoms. This heat treatment in the present of oxygen will promote coil oxidation, change grain size of the metals/alloy, promote new bonds between metal atoms, etc. To this, we should add the continuous contact of the coil with liquid. The liquids may have corrosive properties on the metals, which could further affect the molecular structure and integrity of the metal. Finally, the vaper is inhaling the aerosol directly from the coil itself. All these factors may contribute to the presence of metals to the aerosol. Most materials that are used in e-cigarette products were not developed for this application. In this specific case, the resistance wires were develop and used as heating elements at high temperatures IF NO VECTOR can transport the metal / oxide particles to the human body. This not means that can be used in vaping in the same way.

    Several studies have shown that oxidation of chromium can occur at similar temperature of a dry burn process [a, b, c]. Although these studies show the formation of a less harmful chromium oxide, Cr2O3, we cannot exclude the formation of hexavalent chromium. Hexavalent chromium compounds have varied uses in industry and are often used for their anti-corrosive properties in metal coatings, protective paints, dyes and pigments. Hexavalent chromium can also be formed when performing “hot work” such as welding on stainless steel [d, e], melting chromium metal or heating refractory bricks in kilns. In these situations, the chromium is not originally in the hexavalent form. Obviously, we do not expect such conditions to be replicated at the same level in e-cigarettes, but the evidence shows that metal structure can change and we are finding metals in the e-cigarette aerosol. Taking all these facts in consideration, we believe that this procedure should be avoided if possible.

    How much is metal exposure elevated by dry-burning the coils? Probably not very much. That is why we think the vapers have over-reacted to my statement on RY4radio. However, we do not see a reason why the exposure to metals should be elevated by doing something which can be avoided. There may be other ways of dealing with the issues related to coils. We think it would be preferable to spend some time making a new coil rather than cleaning a used coil using dry-burns. If you want to remove residues from the manufacturing process of the wires, you can use alcohols and water to clean the wire before preparing the coil. If you feel the setup could result in hot spots, it will make little difference if you decrease your power levels by few watts, or spend more time preparing the coil appropriately. Obviously if you want to exploit and use the last watt that the device can give you, then you might find it impossible to do it without dry-burning the coil. But then, do not expect to be exposed to the same levels of harmful substances as vapers not doing it. The situation is similar to another case: if you want to consume 15 or 20 mL per day by doing subohm-direct lung inhalation vaping, do not expect to be exposed to similar amounts of harmful chemicals as those vaping conventionally (or even by direct lung inhalation) consuming 4mL per day. This is just common sense. We need and we will perform research to quantify the exposure (which we think is not very high), but until then it is not a bad idea to use common sense.

    We will repeat our honest opinion that dry-burning the coils will not make vaping similar or worse than smoking. This is clear and there is no need for over-reactions. However, we should reach to a point that e-cigarettes should not just be compared to smoking (which is an extremely bad comparator) but should be evaluated on absolute terms. If something can be avoided, vapers should be aware of it so that they can avoid it if they want to.

    References

    [a] I. Murris, Y. P. Jacob, V. A. C. Haanappel, M. F. Stroosnijder, Oxidation of Metals. 2001;55:307-331.

    K. P. Lillerud and P. Kofstad, J. Electrochem. Soc1980;127: 2397-2410.

    [c] Kaori Taneichi, Takayuki Narushima, Yasutaka Iguchi and Chiaki Ouchi, Materials Transactions 2006;47:2540 to 2546.

    [d] Christofer N Gray, Annmarie Goldstone, Philip RM Dare, Peter Hewit. The Evolution of Hexavalent Chromium in Metallic Aerosols. American Industrial Hygiene Association Journal 1983;44:384-388.

    [e] John H Dennis, Michael J Frenchi, Peter J Hewitt, Seyed B Mortazavi, Christopher AJ Redding. Control of exposure to hexavalent chromium and ozone in gas metal arc welding of stainless steels by use of a secondary shield gas. Ann Occup Hyg 2002;46:43-48.

    Dry-burning metal coils: is it a good thing?
     
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  2. David in Bangkok

    David in Bangkok Well-Known Member

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    I just saw this and luckily I saw your post before I posted it.

    The worst part is just learning how to not dry burn. I find the dry burns to clean the coil to be very helpful. I guess I might be making coils more often now.
     
  3. Scratchy
    Lurking

    Scratchy Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing, V. Of course, I read this while vaping right after having dry burned this atty's previously-used coil and rewicking it. Nice timing. :completely forgotten:

    As was pointed out the risks are probably not bad but I'll probably decrease the re-use of coils and go with some more spaced coils in future builds...depending on the atty. I've found that I rarely have hot spots or uneven glowing when using well-made spaced coils. That as opposed to contact coils. Will also do some alcohol prep on the wires because I am not sure where and how some were produced. Not panicking or anything...it's not going to be that disruptive a thing for me anyway.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2015
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  4. Dieter.
    Fine

    Dieter. Secret Member

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    Thanks for sharing -V-. I always take Dr. Farsalinos messages and findings very serious. He is one of us and knows what he is talking about. And it's not a great deal for me, since I rarely dryburn a coil. I am still not a professional in making coils, or my fingers are extreme clumsy, but i often, when I remove the old wick from the coil, manage to deform the coil so much that it is a lot easier to just make a new coil at the same time, and I have some alcohol at hand, I also use it to clean the 510 connections on my mods. I just wonder why the vaping community got so obset by his statement, as I can read from the article. I noticed it also when Dr. Farsalinos had his say about avoiding colour in e-liquids. Dr. Farsalinos and others with him do a great job in letting the public know, that vaping is a lot healthier than smoking and support our fight for the right to vape. That said if he comes with statements like this it's just to make vaping even safer, and we have to see it in that perspective. If we want to follow his suggestions, are up to us, but at least now we know the risk.
     
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  5. Mack
    Relaxed

    Mack Well-Known Member

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    No more dry burn for me, I doubt that winding a fresh coil and mounting it takes any more time than dry burning anyway, as long as the tools are to hand. Ive been making only spaced coils for about 2 months anyway. This does go to show that high temperature is something to be avoided and that temp control is the way forward.
     
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  6. David in Bangkok

    David in Bangkok Well-Known Member

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    From what he made it sound like, it seemed like they overreacted and thought he meant it was worse than it really was (at least this is my understanding from just this link).

    But I do understand the fear, I see the issue being that this can potentially be ammo for the anti-ecig groups. They can say just dry burning can cause all these potential issues and you have teenagers doing this, so it's not very safe, at least not rebuilding maybe..
     
  7. haybilly
    Paranoid

    haybilly Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully further research will clarify the situation-I, almost always, dry burn my used coils, and generally if but always do it to new coils- don't believe that it doesn't take longer to make and fit a new coil compared to a dry burn-but, that's irrelevant really,if it is increasing the chances of vaping metals, then I must reluctantly change my technique.
    I'm hoping to get the hang of TC fairly soon so that will be a bonus.
     
  8. yourauntbob
    Happy

    yourauntbob hair club for men member

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    i will most likely find myself making more coils, but he even states the increase is minimal and so i will cheat and dry burn probably as much as i make new coils.

    funny though, just this weekend i was at a barbeque with family and my cousin who is also a vapor was telling me that he has always made new coils for this reason. he is very electronically savy and saw this a mile a way i guess. as for me, i am not that concerned....
     
  9. Phaitoon

    Phaitoon Well-Known Member

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    If someone is interested in Dr Farsalinos speaking:

    00:00 Welcome
    02:03 Formaldehyde Study
    17:48 Temperature Study
    22:28 Sweeteners
    26:00 Toxic Aldehydes
    28:23 Ethics
    28:52 Flavouring
    33:37 Formaldehyde prevalence
    36:11 Negative studies in the media
    40:29 Plastic tanks and bottles
    43:22 Titanium wire & Overheating coils
    49:35 Organic e-liquids
    51:34 Nickel wire
    54:17 Vitamins in e-liquid
    56:15 Safety of PG & Additives
    59:11 Cigalikes
    01:02:10 Politics
    01:04:31 Diacetyl
    01:09:27 EU Reclassification of Nicotine

     
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  10. -V-
    Cool

    -V- Thread Starter Administrator Staff Member

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    For me, yes i dry burn, but about heating up the metal, when I build a new coil, I will pulse the coil to glow red and then with my tweezers squeeze the coil together, I will do this until it's all touching and that it's glowing from the inside out.
    So what's being said is you shouldn't even be doing that then?
     
  11. Rick O-Shea

    Rick O-Shea iStick Fanboy

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    Basically someone that dry burns their coils will be exposed to higher levels of harmful substances than someone that doesn't.
     
  12. Siam Diesel
    Lurking

    Siam Diesel Nauti Moderator Staff Member

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    That seems to be what he's saying...dry burning increases the chances of subsequently inhaling metal particles/compounds.
     
  13. Dieter.
    Fine

    Dieter. Secret Member

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    no you should not. The coil suppose to give more metal particles to the aerosol, after doing so. But its not alarming, just a precaution. We have to find ways around this then.
     
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  14. Phaitoon

    Phaitoon Well-Known Member

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    I won’t do everything for safety – i.e. vape unflavored 100% VG only – than I would rather stop completely.
    I’m also not too concerned, especially compared to smoking. But preventing needless hazards… Why not?
    To always keep the coil temp in a suitable range for vaping (around 250C / 500F) makes totally sense.
    For me this means: a gradually switch to temperature controlled devices :) and no more dry burns :-(
     
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  15. David in Bangkok

    David in Bangkok Well-Known Member

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    My question on this is, if you are going to be lazy and not make a new coil every week or so, what is more dangerous 1. dry burning or 2. not dry burning and continuing to vape with a nice thick amount of residue caked on the coil?
     

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