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Reset li ion battery protection circuit

Discussion in 'Vaping Technical Issues' started by Scuba Vaper, Dec 28, 2015.

  1. Scuba Vaper

    Scuba Vaper Thread Starter Open Water Scuva Instructor

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    I've done a fair amount of research on this issue, which eventually led me to this video -



    http://xtarlight.com/08-technology/p-001-1.asp?id=32

    My question is - does anyone have an XTAR charger, and more specifically have you managed to recharge "flat" li ion batteries where the protection circuit has been tripped by over discharge?

    Reason I ask is I have some Sanyo 18650 batteries that I know have the overdischarge part of the protection circuit activated and been trying to put them back into service. Everything else I tried didn't revive the batteries, and seems a huge waste to bin them ...
     
  2. Siam Diesel
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    Siam Diesel Nauti Moderator Staff Member

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    Using protected Li-Ion batteries for vaping is not recommended at all. They're usually low drain batteries with high(er) internal resistance...they're suitable for flashlights (hence the protection circuit) but not for vaping.

    My XTAR VP2 has successfully resurrected an overdischarged LG HE2...but that's an unprotected battery. It took quite a while but the battery functions perfectly now. Protected batteries have a PCB circuit installed...essentially a fuse as I understand it. Don't know if they physically burn out like a fuse, but if they do, nothing short of replacing the protection circuit will bring the battery back to life.

    You might find this of interest...
    The Cost of Good Batteries / Battery Safety Links | Thailand Vapers
     
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  3. Scuba Vaper

    Scuba Vaper Thread Starter Open Water Scuva Instructor

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    @Siam Diesel, thanks once again.

    From what I've read, some people have managed to untrip the protection circuit, but as there's no one standard I don't know if I can reset these ones. The alternative is to solder a bypass onto the batteries, which I'd prefer not to do, as the protection circuit, well, does exactly that.

    The specs on my batteries are I think 5A drain, which would give around 15-20w (3.7 x 5) which could from what I understand give enough power to supply above ohm vaping. And if my DIY skills where up to scratch (not sure they are!), in parallel 6 cells would give up to a possible 120w.

    I'm going to buy an XTAR charger anyway, and continue experimenting, as it doesn't hurt to have another li ion charger on hand, and revived batteries can be used in one project or another. I noticed you recommended a Thai supplier for XTAR on another thread (sunflashlight.blogspot.com), are they reputable, or you have knowledge of anyone using them?
     
  4. Siam Diesel
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    Siam Diesel Nauti Moderator Staff Member

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    As mentioned previously, protected batteries are not recommended for vaping irrespective of their amp rating. Personally, I wouldn't use your old batteries in any mod and most others on here would tell you the same thing. Batteries are cheap...your face is 2 inches away from the mod...why on earth would you even consider doing this??? The dangers are very real.

    I've bought several things from him...he's very reputable.
     
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  5. Longtail1
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    Longtail1 Vaping Troll

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    In all honesty if there is one thing I would NEVER risk it is using sub-standard batteries, or even possibly sub-standard batteries, even at low watts. It is just not worth the possible risks involved. GOOD batteries are around the 300THB mark. Not a lot for peace of mind.
     
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  6. Scuba Vaper

    Scuba Vaper Thread Starter Open Water Scuva Instructor

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    I did read your message ...And don't worry I don't ever do anything unsafe or take any risks :)

    I hadn't realised that vaping batteries are unprotected, so very handy to know. And yes probably makes sense that they're unprotected, this overdischarge circuit on my Sanyo 18650s is a pain in the backside to reset ...

    Thanks for the recommendation on XTAR retailer, I'll get in touch.


    Understood; presumably you're also buying top quality mods, as a faulty, damaged or badly manufactured mod could be just as dangerous with unprotected li ion batteries, because doesn't the mod also act as a protection circuit against overdischarge, which is from what I understand a fire/explosion/personal injury risk ?

    @all, I haven't as yet decided the fate of my protect tripped Sanyo 18650 batteries. They may end up getting binned, or a vaping project or non-vaping project - but rest assured that whatever I do with them will be 100% safe ...
     
  7. Longtail1
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    Longtail1 Vaping Troll

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    No presumably about it lol. Sick of mods that promise so much and deliver so little so I spend far too much getting mods and tanks that after a lot of research are reputed to be high quality. Not always the way unfortunately.
     
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  8. Scuba Vaper

    Scuba Vaper Thread Starter Open Water Scuva Instructor

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    @Siam Diesel - I just ordered Sony VTC5, specs say they have a 2.5v cutoff, which is where my Sanyo's died. So not sure if the Sonys are fully unprotected, as it would seem they might have a similar cutoff circuit at 2.5v, which is the overdischarge protection that I originally mentioned ?

    @Longtail1 , yup, had similar experiences with equipment in other arenas ... I get what I pay for usually ! ... Occasionally I get a real bargain :)
     
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  9. Siam Diesel
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    Siam Diesel Nauti Moderator Staff Member

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    Sony VTC5's are unprotected IMR batteries...they have no cutoff protection whatsoever. If you're using them in a regulated mod, the mod will cut out around 3.2 volts (i.e., the battery will show 'empty'). If you're using them in a mech mod, you wouldn't want to take them much below this anyway. The 2.5 volt cutoff is where the manufacturer considers them to be empty. FWIW, VTC5's were never intended for vaping applications...they're used in computer battery packs (and in the Tesla electric vehicle, I've heard.)

    VTC5 Data Sheet
     

    Attached Files:

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  10. Scuba Vaper

    Scuba Vaper Thread Starter Open Water Scuva Instructor

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    @Siam Diesel , thanks for info ... They'll (hopefully) be used in regulated mod, which I've emailed order over for :)
    **Updated**
    PS, once I've got my XTAR, I might give the Sonys a drain down to 2.5v see what happens ...

    I also have an interest in li ions for dive photography and videography, so all useful info :)
     
  11. Siam Diesel
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    Siam Diesel Nauti Moderator Staff Member

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    The XTAR will not drain the Sony's to 2.5 volts...you'll have to find some other way to safely do that. Don't know why you'd want to do it, though...the only thing that should happen is that the XTAR will take longer to charge them...and doing so may shorten their working life. If anything more dramatic happens, I hope you're behind a concrete barrier...seriously!
    :vaping: :vaping:
     
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  12. Scuba Vaper

    Scuba Vaper Thread Starter Open Water Scuva Instructor

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    @Siam Diesel LOL an LED or light bulb of some description would do it ... or a hefty resistor ... I'm adequately equipped electronics wise to do that safely ...

    As for safety, I'm an ex gas engineer and with scuba we're constantly working with potentially unsafe materials (eg compressed gases including oxygen) and in environments where safety is paramount ... Mostly about following procedures and routines, but some balls are involved, sometimes, whilst keeping a cool head ... So I don't take risks, that's how I'm still alive, with all my limbs working, has worked for me so far ...

    Running them down to 2.5v would just be for my own curiosity, see whether they have a protection fuse for overdischarge or not ... And seeing whether the XTAR would revive it ... And obviously I'd take safety precautions :)
    **Updated**
    PS, sorry one last question, is IMR a type of battery or brand name ?
    **Updated**
    PPS, probably should have included this in the OP, rather than just a link, from XTAR website :

    "

    In our daily life, some of us have the experience that when we forget to take out a battery of flashlight/e-cig and place it for a long time, we will notice that the batteries won’t work and can’t be charged again. If you use high drain batteries for your electronic cigarettes, you may notice that your new batteries also can’t be charged sometimes when we overuse it. The reason behind that is because your batteries are over discharged and the battery voltage is too low. Misuse of batteries can also lead to over discharge.


    Numerous examples show that the batteries are easy to be over discharged which mean numerous batteries are thrown away every year.It will be a huge waste and bad for our environment. People may think it’s impossible to reuse the over discharge batteries. Before XTAR chargers came out, no chargers could do that. We turned impossible to possible and invented a technology that can revive the over discharge batteries called 0V activation function.


    The reason the over discharge batteries can’t be charged by normal chargers is that the battery voltage is too low and can’t be detected. With XTAR battery chargers, the battery can be detected and charged again. For other over discharge batteries, if the batteries are not bad, can also be revived and charged by XTAR chargers.

    "
     
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  13. Longtail1
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    Longtail1 Vaping Troll

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    All I will add to this thread is that trying to vape on a battery, whether on a mech or regulated the quality of vape will deteriorate so badly by 3-3.2 volts that you will be compelled to change the battery to get a nic fix and some vapor. At some point you will discharge a battery below 3.2V in error. Why do it intentionally? You have received some very sound advice from SD here that I totally agree with from my personal experience as well as research.
     
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  14. Siam Diesel
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    Siam Diesel Nauti Moderator Staff Member

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    A physical examination would do the same thing...batteries with a protection circuit have telltale signs as shown in this article (The Anatomy of a Protected Battery). The wire strip connecting the PCB is visible through the shrink wrapping.
    Is my battery protected

    IMR is a type of battery chemistry.
    (9) Battery Basics for Mods; the Ultimate Battery Guide | E-Cigarette Forum

    When I purchased my VS rDNA40, it came with an LG HE2 installed. By the time it got to me, the battery was discharged below 1 volt. It took almost a full day but my XTAR VP2 brought it back to life...and it's been working fine ever since.
     
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  15. Scuba Vaper

    Scuba Vaper Thread Starter Open Water Scuva Instructor

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    Thanks for info, I don't know everything, obviously, and we are all constantly learning ...

    Just trying to get to the bottom of why I have £60/$100 worth of binnable batteries, simply due to an accidental drain to 2.5v. My OP was clear on that. I'm working with li ions in multiple projects, and throwing away batteries without trying to resolve issues is an utter waste of money, and not good for the planet either.

    I'm also keen on DIY in electronics, photography, videography, computing, scuba and many other fields. Often this saves me money, and sometimes time, because I don't have to rely on other people *all* the time.

    TBH, @Siam Diesel is very knowledgable, which is refreshing compared to threads I found elsewhere about the subject, which seemed to be blind leading the blind, misinformed people, making uninformed exaggerated statements about li ion battery safety rather than actually answering the OP ... Still that's the internet these days ! Rough with the smooth.

    @Siam Diesel , thanks for your patience, appreciate you sharing relevant links, it helps.

    So my cells are Sanyo "unprotected" by your definition, they don't have the ribbon wire or the "button" at the bottom. They do however have an overdischarge protection circuit of some discription, which means on voltmeter they read 0v after being discharged close to 2.5v ... My hope in my OP was to find a way to charge them, which I may have, if they behave same as your LG; so I will order an XTAR, as it's possible it's clever enough to reset what I'm calling "protection circuit", for want of a better term. The sunflashlight guy emailed me back, now I just have to pay him and wait for it to turn up :)
     
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